Amiga and Commodore news and topics not covered in the other forums
User avatar
intric8
Site Admin
 
Posts: 487
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:49 am
Location: Seattle, WA

Atari ST Computer Sales and Marketshare: A Comparison

by intric8 Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:06 pm

In the late 1980s there was a “creative trinity” that emerged in the 16-bit home computer market. Apple’s Macintosh went after the desktop publishing market; Commodore’s powerful Amiga aimed for the video and motion graphics designers; and Atari’s ST line of computers captivated music professionals with built-in MIDI. All three of these platforms shared similarities between each other as they all leveraged Motorola’s 68K processor, but each found strong support in their creative niche. And, of course, they all battled for a dwindling marketshare with video gamers who had begun to migrate to PC clones in mass numbers.

A fascinating twist in the annals of Amiga and Atari in particular is that Commodore was ultimately fighting against “one of their own” in Jack Tramiel. Tramiel had founded Commodore, and the PET, VIC-20 and Commodore 64 computer lines were released during his leadership there. He left Commodore in 1984 and later that year purchased the Atari division from Warner Brothers, which owned the struggling brand at the time. Tramiel then formed Atari Corporation and lead the company to focus on the 16-bit Atari ST line of computers. Those computers, ultimately, became a direct competitor to Commodore's Amiga. And so the circle was complete.

Jeremy Reimer for Ars Technica in 2005:
“Jack Tramiel had left the company in a dispute with his financial backer, and had purchased Atari's computer division. He spearheaded the rapid development of the Atari ST, sometimes called the "Jackintosh." It also used a 68000 [like the Mac and Amiga] but lacked the Amiga's advanced custom chips and multitasking operating system. Nevertheless, it was still capable of playing great games, and its cheaper price (it originally retailed for US$799 with a monochrome monitor) hurt Amiga sales.”
Tramiel's shocking departure made headlines and is still archived online at the NY Times.

The Amiga was released in the summer of 1985 and began to make some waves by 1986. By 1987, Commodore finally released the Amiga 500 and 2000 under pressure from competition by Atari attacking its very similar market.

Jeremy Reimer again for Ars:
“Meanwhile, the Atari ST's momentum tailed off, with sales slowly declining as better games started coming out designed specifically for the Amiga 500. Atari did not release any new models of the ST except for a version with extra RAM preinstalled. Thanks to the inclusion of a MIDI port with every model, however, the ST became the computer of choice for digital musicians.”


Ultimately, this is where a bit of the Amiga vs. Atari fan-wars emerged and still exist today, although with much less fervor and teeth gnashing. Time cures all, right? The truth is the two fanbases share much more in common than they realized back in the pre-internet days.

So how do the Atari ST sales and marketshare actually stack up?

According to research by Reimer, who gathered his figures from various annual reports, International Data Corp (IDC) forecasts, Gartner Dataquest research, as well as a few magazine articles from the 1980s (most of which have gone dark online since originally compiled, unfortunately). The numbers were pretty grim for both platforms when looking at the larger overall marketshare picture.

See the chart below (numbers are in 1,000s) for Reimer’s original analysis of quantities sold for the Amiga and ST lines. I include the Amiga, it’s step-brother of sorts, for comparison’s sake.

SALES

sales.png
Home computer sales, 1982-1994. Numbers in thousands - e.g. 300 = 300,000

MARKETSHARE

marketshare.png
Home computer marketshare, 1982-1994

To try and validate these figures, I took a look at Atari's 10-Q filing from 1989. While the numbers aren't an exact match (the 10-Qs don't explicitly show sales figures for specific product lines), the numbers do seem to follow the proper trends. Atari reported a slowing down for 1989 compared to 1988, which is reflected correctly in Reimer's data.

In the 10-Q filing:
“The decline in total sales for 1989 as compared to 1988 can be attributed to the decline in the United States of our traditional video game line. European markets continue to out-perform all other markets in both computers and video games.”
Atari wasn’t the only company feeling this shift in consumerism, as we all know. What ultimately was witnessed with the Amiga in the US mirrored Atari’s ST experience as PC clones flooded the US market. This gave a short lifeline extension to both brands in the European markets in the early 90s before both companies finally fizzled out.

1988 looks like an insanely rough year for Atari in the Net Income graph below, but much of the drop was due to a previous acquisition of 67 Federated electronics retail stores, which was thought would dramatically expand Atari's distribution for its well-regarded, inexpensive line of personal computers while enhancing Federated's ability to compete.

netIncome.jpg
Atari Corps net income. Chart from 1989 10-Q filing.


From the NY Times in August, 1987:
“Atari has essentially decided to buy distribution in the United States because it has been stymied in its attempts to persuade established retailers to carry its wares. Two-thirds of Atari personal computers are sold in Europe. Major American dealers, such as Computerland and Businessland, have declined to carry Atari machines, partly because Atari has an image as a video game company whose machines would not appeal to corporate customers.”

[...]

“The retailers perhaps are also wary of Atari's chairman, Jack Tramiel, who, in his days as head of Commodore International, undermined his dealers by slashing prices and moving his computers to mass merchandisers such as K Mart. Atari now has 800 dealers, Mr. Pratt [Atari's chief financial officer] said. That is about a half to a third the number of Apple and I.B.M. dealers, and many Atari dealers are not computer specialists. Atari recently began recruiting music stores to carry its machines, for instance.”


That was surely a Hail-Mary attempt to keep a foothold in the music industry since their fortunes in the computer industry were fading.

What Atari didn’t know was that the debt Federated brought with it was much higher than had been originally reported. This, on top of a DRAM shortage in 1988 helped fuel the fires that were smoldering at Atari HQ.

On page 27 of the 1989 financial report, Atari said “Sales of ST and PC products [emphasis mine] increased by 9% to $322.0 million, or 76%, of total net sales in 1989, from $296.5 million, or 66%, of total net sales in 1988.” This doesn’t give us exact sales figures for the particular product lines, but a glommed together sales revenue picture. So the report says sales revenue increased slightly overall, while Reimer’s data shows a slight decrease in the ST line’s sales. This certainly could be the case, as 1989 also saw the introduction of the Portfolio, Lynx, and STACY products.

By 1993, Atari ceased development of the ST computers to focus on the Jaguar game console - the last console to bear the Atari brand. The Jaguar was discontinued three years later as Atari Corp began to exit from existing as an independent company and its hardware days were over.
kovacm
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:42 pm

Re: Atari ST Computer Sales and Marketshare: A Comparison

by kovacm Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:44 pm

Here you can read about Jeremy Reimer sources about figures: http://jeremyreimer.com/uploads/notes-on-sources.txt - he did not mention from where he pull number of Atari sales!

"To try and validate these figures, I took a look at Atari's 10-Q filing from 1989"

Here is Atari Corp. K-10 Form for 1989. (note that Atari Corp was not obligate to fill K-10 before 1989.!): https://ia801304.us.archive.org/31/item ... 201989.pdf

as you can read THERE is NO sales figure in units, only in $.

Further, in K-10 for 1989. Atari Corp. state:
"Sales of ST and PC products INCREASED by 36%, from $218.1 million in 1987 to $296.5 million in 1988."

and according to Jeremy Reimer Atari ST sales:
1987 - 400.000
1988 - 350.000
Jeremy fail to note increase of 36% from 10-K but instead he DECREASE ST sales for 15% !!!

This bring shadow over Jeremys numbers regarding ST sales!!!

You also quote WRONG paragraph from Atari Corp. 1989. 10-Q filling :
“The decline in total sales for 1989 as compared to 1988 can be attributed to the decline in the United States of our traditional video game line. European markets continue to out-perform all other markets in both computers and video games.”

and than you continue to argue: "Atari reported a slowing down for 1989 compared to 1988, which is reflected correctly in Reimer's data."

Your logic is completely bogus!
I am not sure if you on purpose quote wrong paragraph from 10-Q and use it as argument to justify Reimers questionable data?

btw
your argument that Portfolio, Lynx, and STACY (why you count lynx in "ST and PC products"?!?) could be that increase in sale of 25.5 million (and not ST since Reimer report DECLINE of ST sales in that period)?!? Do you know how many Stacys or cheap Portfolios did Atari sold that year? Certainly not for 25.5 million!
User avatar
Zippy Zapp
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:12 pm
Location: CA, USA

Re: Atari ST Computer Sales and Marketshare: A Comparison

by Zippy Zapp Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:36 pm

Nice write up, intric8. I always like to imagine what the Amiga would have been like if Jack had never left.

Interesting how the Amiga was designed by mostly the team that designed the Atari 800 and Ex Commodore engineers worked on the ST. ST was sold in Toys R Us just like the Commodore 64. But it was obviously not as custom as the Amiga, IE didn't have all the fancy co processors/custom chips. Used more off the shelf components, IE Sound chip,floppy controller, I/O, etc. They tried to rectify this with the STE line but was too late by then.

kovacm wrote:Your logic is completely bogus!
I am not sure if you on purpose quote wrong paragraph from 10-Q and use it as argument to justify Reimers questionable data?


That's a little harsh. Logic seemed fine to me and I didn't read anything malicious here which you seem to infer with your comments...
User avatar
intric8
Site Admin
 
Posts: 487
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:49 am
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Atari ST Computer Sales and Marketshare: A Comparison

by intric8 Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:44 pm

Thanks Zippy Zapp.

I think kovacm is living a bit in the past, which I still find here and there with some folks who can't let go of their own anecdotal experiences. It's as if the research I put together is trying to paint "alternative facts" over some underlying insidious agenda. Not the case. I ran across this on Facebook with on an Atari Group, too. There were a few folks, however, who stepped in and backed me up. It's rare, but some old feelings of perceived battle lines are still drawn in some folks' minds. Heck, I've found these types of attitudes on plenty of Amiga forums as well, and I've never really understood it.

For me, I really don't care who has the most numbers in this or that. I just want to know what the numbers are. And unfortunately, back then (ironically) most of them were kept on paper, or the ancient disks were destroyed when they companies went kaput.

With the few shreds of information we have at our disposal, I always welcome anyone who has any data to share it. And if you disagree with it, then provide your data, research or analysis to back it up.
kovacm
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:42 pm

Re: Atari ST Computer Sales and Marketshare: A Comparison

by kovacm Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:14 pm

As I suspect you are pretty arrogant. Even here you did not answer on my comment that show errors in your text but gave us some general replay! Yes, I am really annoyed with REWRITING computer history by Amigans (especial in last Viva Amiga movie!)

---
Further, in K-10 for 1989. Atari Corp. state:
"Sales of ST and PC products INCREASED by 36%, from $218.1 million in 1987 to $296.5 million in 1988."

and according to Jeremy Reimer Atari ST sales:
1987 - 400.000
1988 - 350.000
Jeremy fail to note increase of 36% from 10-K but instead he DECREASE ST sales for 15% !!!
---

There are more wrong conclusion in you text but let focus first on this.

Other places where you did not answer to same claims are (and you call for comments):
http://www.lemonamiga.com/forum/viewtop ... 636#129636
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=84295&page=2
kovacm
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:42 pm

Re: Atari ST Computer Sales and Marketshare: A Comparison

by kovacm Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:25 pm

Zippy Zapp wrote:
kovacm wrote:Your logic is completely bogus!
I am not sure if you on purpose quote wrong paragraph from 10-Q and use it as argument to justify Reimers questionable data?


That's a little harsh. Logic seemed fine to me and I didn't read anything malicious here which you seem to infer with your comments...

it is not "a little harsh" since intrict8 refuse to answer on my claims.
It is frustrating to call people to comments and than not answering on posts (like he just did again).

And it is frustrating to see that everybody quote Jeremy numbers but NONE question them!

From Q-10 fillings you can not see how many units Atari Corp. sold.

I think best way would be to make database with serial numbers of Atari computers, like http://chipmunk.nl or to wait for Curt Vendal and Marty Goldberg new book: Atari Corp. "Business is Was" (since they collect as much as they can documentation, hardware and other Atari Inc. and Atari Corp. stuff). Everything else, like intrict8 or Jeremy numbers, are completely bogus since they both fail (refuse or simple skip) to show how they come up with these numbers!

Here is Jeremy source of numbers: http://jeremyreimer.com/uploads/notes-on-sources.txt - do you see where he got Atari Corp. numbers? And yet everybody use this as valid data! ...he made few graphs (based on unsourced data) and everybody goes WOW! And if you challenge this data: everybody goes silent!
User avatar
Shot97
 
Posts: 321
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:01 pm
Location: Detroit, MI, USA

Re: Atari ST Computer Sales and Marketshare: A Comparison

by Shot97 Thu Feb 02, 2017 6:00 am

You created an account with the sole desire of bashing what happens to be the sites owner... Even with the best of intentions; yours certainly not being of the best; you're coming to hostile territory, guns loaded, and you hope to accomplish??? What?

I, in fact, feel for you, believe it or not. One source quoting things in terms of money, with increased earning year to year, and then another showing that very same time period but instead basing it on units sold with decreasing numbers... Hey, you've got something there. Which is why I have spent 15+ years eating up every single Amiga sales related story I can find... Rarely discussing those numbers with anyone but myself... Just pondering... Because there's so much crap out there... Oh so much crap.... Eventually over many years at looking at many figures, hopefully through interviews and god forbid even some deductive reasoning may help guide you to a truth that I'm sure nobody else will bother to listen to.

I've always said the Amiga, when not lumping in all of Europe together, which the sale figures always do... The Amiga sold more units in America than all countries except Germany. That even if we didn't sell as many Amiga's here as in all of Europe, with an older market wanting more expensive games/utilities, that we meant a whole hell of a lot more than a heavily European centric Amiga voice is saying we mean...

That's 15 years of numbers/interviews/and common sense talking. Atari? I can't say I can speak intelligently on Atari sales. I will say it's not the Amiga community that's attempting to erase Atari from history.... Ummm.... The Amiga and Atari have already been erased because of Microsoft/Apple history. Your anger at people who love the Amiga... Unfounded... Point to Steve Jobs, a man with history who clearly loved to rewrite his very own history and did his best to get that story out.... I love watching Atari videos, I love watching people who love their machine... THe Apple II GS was also of that era with the Amiga/ST and was an impressive machine. Even Jobs would love for everyone to forget about the Apple II line in favor of the Mac.... It's not just Amiga fans, it's the very heads of some of the companies. The victors write the history, sadly.

I know you would have gotten so much further here if you'd stated your views in a calm manor, perhaps posted on something else here... There's a lot of topics here, my friend, there's not a single one you might happen to find enjoyable? You really feel it was best to create an account and have your only posts be what they are? Really?

I know all about using anger to make a point; but I stand in front of a camera, so the whole world can see me... on my very own youtube or my very own topic here.... Because that's MY video... That's MY topic.... and I'll say whatever the hell I want, to hell with who I piss off... But you came here to bitch, and you happily went elsewhere to bitch, where you have but 5 posts since joining in 2015 on Lemon... Many more on the very top of the smug Amiga forums, EAB, I noticed...

Wishing to not attack unfairly I took a bit of a dive into your posts on EAB... Where they consist of primarily the aforementioned continuation of what was a stupid war in the early 90's between two groups that should have been friends, not enemies. You just sit there bashing the Amiga to bolster Atari... I feel no love for Atari from you, just blind hatred for the Amiga.... You're fighting a war that should have never been started, and finished over 20 years ago.... There's no love for history there...

There's a language barrier, I'm sure of that... There are some languages that just don't have enough Latin, French, ya know, the love languages... Where almost every word comes out as hate, just how the language works... Perhaps that has something to do with it... In if there is indeed some kind of real love inside of you for Atari...By all means I invite you to write a novel on how great and special it is... But you can try one small thing? Can you NOT mention the Amiga at all when you talk about your love for the Atari? Is that a thing that's possible for you? I'd love to see you try it.

I am not the biggest fan of certain types of articles getting posted here... I feel some clickbait comes here now and then. I can't say I looked at this exact figures and made much note of it... I don't care for stories about Jack going to Atari... What if this happened, what if that happened? I want for the exact same thing to happen, because if you change it in any way I feel you may not have had an Amiga, or an ST, or.... oh yeah it's possible, NONE OF THEM! What happened, happened, dive into it because it is interesting; but one should never say if only Jack didn't leave or Atari didn't do that... Yeah... and if only Gary Kildall sued Microsoft for stealing his operating system, for selling it so cheap to put him out of business.... If you change anything you change EVERYTHING! - and in the end it may have all came out in the best possible way.

Intric8 owns this site.... Pays for it... Is not making any money on it... Attempts to show through screenshots American Amiga games in the proper aspect ratio of 4:3, this is historically relevant. Good is being done. I think this is the finest Amiga forum out there; but I can't say I can understand why a quickly read and opined on piece; that may feel like it's designed just to get views - Why does that get more views than something else I write that may be attempting to be trans-formative? I don't know... Probably because I can't be bothered to off to many sites and link what I write, where as Intric8 does his very best to get as much exposure as possible to a very new forum. He even goes to two places I would NEVER go to write or link to in EAB/Lemon... because they are not welcoming.... Even if they find your video, link it, talk behind your back, and are surprised when you come to defend yourself...

I utterly disagree with linking anything from this site on Lemon or EAB; because they don't give a shit and I don't feel it helps this forum out in any way. Just focus on making good stuff, let them find you, let them become a member if they wish to be a part of this place.... But this is not my site; and I am not always right... and my opinion does not even matter unless he asks it... So, agree with him or not, it takes balls for him to go to those places to talk about things he talks about here. For that; I'll never understand, but I respect it.

I'd respect you and your numbers if you weren't being a complete DICK about them... If you tried to find anything else before posting this here and the same crap elsewhere.... Sometimes it does not matter how right you are; you, my friend, are the worst possible messenger.
User avatar
intric8
Site Admin
 
Posts: 487
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:49 am
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Atari ST Computer Sales and Marketshare: A Comparison

by intric8 Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:29 pm

Hi kovacm, I've taken my time in responding to you as I felt it was necessary to get some perspective and exhale a bit. You seemed pretty wound up and red-faced, and I wanted to be sure to address your concerns with respect. That means I'll try to the best of my ability without any shouting, using all-caps or more than one exclamation point in a row. We're all adults here, so let's have a conversation. Right?

First off, I'm not really sure what you're so upset about. And you are certainly upset. So, take that blanket statement of mild confusion for starters.

If you're upset with the idea that I didn't provide exact sales figures, that's because - at least right now on this day at this exact moment - the math is fuzzy to say the least. Most of the old historical documents that would give us the precise answers we seek are not online, nor in print. Anywhere. If it is to be in print (some day) in the future, great! But today and for the past 20 years we've only had shreds and clues.
kovacm wrote:Here you can read about Jeremy Reimer sources about figures: http://jeremyreimer.com/uploads/notes-on-sources.txt - he did not mention from where he pull number of Atari sales!


So what we have - this includes Jeremy Reimer - going back as far as 2005 and some in printed form from the 1980s from what I can tell are multiple sources, none of which are complete, being compiled as best as can be done by those involved to paint a picture, which includes Atari, Commodore, Apple and the gigantic PC/IBM clone market. If you have a better approach - please, go for it. I read (somewhere) that he had taken piles of old magazines (which are going to be inflated and semi-bull), old articles (many not online anymore), IDC reports, and other sources. Take a few days of your own time and put the data together as you perceive them to be. I'd be very interested in your results. And to be honest, I really bring no expectations to the table besides curiosity and an interest in history. I happen to have grown up playing Atari games and have a deep affection for the brand, its products and the people who created them. Last October I even went to a panel discussion to hear from some of the original artists from Atari. It was fantastic. The fact that some people still slam their fists over this topic is rather silly. Sorry, it just is. I think half the time these articles create confusion in readers who have anecdotal non-scientific responses, like, "But everyone I knew had one. The whole world must have been the same." Sadly, no.

So we had magazines (and frankly, do you entirely trust marketing departments and PR departments, which fed magazines their info? But it's a data point...). We had professional market intelligence reports from firms like IDC (you have to pay for those reports). We also had 10-Q filings, but again these were not broken down line-by-line or even by product line, but more glommed together in summary form. So what Reimer did and what I did was do our best with the pitiful data at hand, much like an archeologist would, and go from there. Sorry if that upset you (for whatever reason).
"To try and validate these figures, I took a look at Atari's 10-Q filing from 1989"

Here is Atari Corp. K-10 Form for 1989. (note that Atari Corp was not obligate to fill K-10 before 1989.!): https://ia801304.us.archive.org/31/item ... 201989.pdf

as you can read THERE is NO sales figure in units, only in $.
You're repeating what I said in the article myself.

Further, in K-10 for 1989. Atari Corp. state:
"Sales of ST and PC products INCREASED by 36%, from $218.1 million in 1987 to $296.5 million in 1988."

and according to Jeremy Reimer Atari ST sales:
1987 - 400.000
1988 - 350.000
Jeremy fail to note increase of 36% from 10-K but instead he DECREASE ST sales for 15% !!!

This bring shadow over Jeremys numbers regarding ST sales!!!


OK, calm [the hell] down.

You yourself glommed ST and "PC Products" together. The column in his data is for ST only. PC Products could mean monitors, printers, modems - shit. That overall revenue has nothing to do with marketshare or ST sales on their own. I wish it did, but it doesn't. And I took one piece of data. Reimer had vastly more than I did.

I think best way would be to make database with serial numbers of Atari computers, like http://chipmunk.nl
Please do! If you have the ability and resources, that would be a very valuable service. Granted, it might take a very long time to collect, but it's a fine idea assuming the serial numbers 1) never changed across the ST line, 2) were consistent regardless of the country of origin and 3) has a direct correlation to units sold that is easy to decipher.

Jeremy Reimer is on Twitter. I'm sure he'd love to have a conversation with a friendly Atari fan such as yourself about the minutia of that particular row in his spreadsheet.

At this stage, I'm sorry if you think my post is inaccurate. And if it is, that was not my intent. I appreciate you taking the time to rant about it here, too. I hadn't thought about this in awhile and it was interesting poking through the data again.

It does make me want to reach out to Reimer myself at some point. I'd love to congratulate him for all of his work on this important topic. I can't think of anyone else who has given it the attention it deserves.

But not right now.

If you do, though, please - let us know what you find out. And I'd recommend using a less bombastic, aggressive Trump-ian tone. There's a better chance he'll respond if you are cool about it.

P.S.
I remember when I created my original post that his "note on sources" also mentioned various other publications, but I don't think that's online anymore for some reason. I encourage you to download his original spreadsheet, and contact him with any issues you might have with it. Took me awhile to understand why you linked to the 10-Q filing when I link to it myself in the OP. And then in dawned on me... you copy/pasted this whole thing from some other board. (sigh)
User avatar
intric8
Site Admin
 
Posts: 487
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:49 am
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Atari ST Computer Sales and Marketshare: A Comparison

by intric8 Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:23 pm

@kovacm I forgot to mention this in my previous response and wanted to make sure I put it out there.

Just because Atari expressed an increase in sales (overall) in the 10-Q for that particular year, that does not create a direct correlation to increased marketshare. Marketshare is a dynamic thing, and the market can contract or expand in a given year. So even if Atari had, let's say, a 25% increase in overall sales that doesn't mean their marketshare would increase at the same rate. In fact, it could even decrease. If PC/DOS clones or other competitors had a good year, too, it could actually decrease Atari's marketshare even if they sold more than the previous year.

I'll do my best to add this response on the other two boards as well, and do better about keeping track of those conversations in the future.
kovacm
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:42 pm

Re: Atari ST Computer Sales and Marketshare: A Comparison

by kovacm Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:25 am

intric8 wrote:Hi kovacm, I've taken my time in responding to you as I felt it was necessary to get some perspective and exhale a bit. You seemed pretty wound up and red-faced, and I wanted to be sure to address your concerns with respect. That means I'll try to the best of my ability without any shouting, using all-caps or more than one exclamation point in a row. We're all adults here, so let's have a conversation. Right?

First off, I'm not really sure what you're so upset about. And you are certainly upset. So, take that blanket statement of mild confusion for starters.

Thank you for answers and thank you for your TIME (both intric8 and Shot97).
Yes, I was annoyed by not getting answer from intric8 on two or three occasion (other forums), and this topic is important for me because many people will take yours, or Jeremys, numbers as facts.

It is connected with another topic, which bring "red-faced" on me, but not related to you: it is Kim Justice video (YT) about Amiga which is full of lies; Viva Amiga also - this is how Amiga users try to rewrite history and to present Jack Tramiel as a negative, corrupted and worst possible man (while opposite is true - anyone who listen and watch what he say can conclude this). I even open thread at Atari-forum: "REWRITING HISTORY - 'Jack Tramiel loaned Amiga $500.000'" http://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=30697 (note: I still did not listed Kim Justice video since I do not know where to start...)

Shot97 wrote:Your anger at people who love the Amiga... Unfounded...

I am not anger on Amiga users, I myself had Amiga 500 from 1992. (ST from 1986.)
I am angry on Amiga users that REWRITE HISTORY, and by my research so far, there are two main sources of this: R J Mical and Dave Needle (and third, Dave Hayne, who re-tell stories from these two). I also understand their personal motives for this (Jack refuse to buy entire Amiga team while he was at Commodore, and later with whole Lynx thing).




Thank you for calm replay. Shot97, you especially!
Let we see, on topic...

intric8 wrote:You yourself glommed ST and "PC Products" together. The column in his data is for ST only. PC Products could mean monitors, printers, modems - shit.

There is not much to discus :/
We have increase 25.5 million (36%) in revenue in 1989. in "ST and PC Compatibles" category

Image

and Jeremy and you decrease ST sales by 50.000 STs (I repeat my self but you did not provide me with explanation: Do you really believe that Atari Corp. could sell 50.000 STs less and despite of that, still make 25.5 million more than previous year by selling more "monitors, printers, modems..."?? :D)

according to Jeremy Reimer Atari ST sales:
1987 - 400.000
1988 - 350.000


intric8 wrote:Marketshare is a dynamic thing, and the market can contract or expand in a given year. So even if Atari had, let's say, a 25% increase in overall sales that doesn't mean their marketshare would increase at the same rate.


I do not talk about market share but Atari ST untis sold: 1987. - 400.000 vs 1988. - 350.000


intric8 wrote:Jeremy Reimer is on Twitter. I'm sure he'd love to have a conversation with a friendly Atari fan such as yourself about the minutia of that particular row in his spreadsheet.

I already have exchange few emails with Reimer article about Amiga History: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2007/10/ ... ore-years/ where he claim that Jack Tramiel sign a deal (including $500.000 loan) with Amiga Corp.:

"When it hit 98¢ per share, both sides walked away from the table. It was at this point that Atari "loaned" Amiga $500,000 to continue operations for a few more months.

This poisonous deal was put together by none other than Jack Tramiel, who had managed to purchase Atari's computer division after being kicked out of Commodore."


But after I pointed him to original contract where you can see that Warner Atari Inc. sign partnership contract with Amiga Corp. he stop replaying and leave text as it is at ArsTechnica.


intric8 wrote:Took me awhile to understand why you linked to the 10-Q filing when I link to it myself in the OP. And then in dawned on me... you copy/pasted this whole thing from some other board. (sigh)

Yes, I did copy since I did not get replay from you in another places so I copy my replay here :|

Thank you for replay!
Return to The Lounge

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest