Amiga hardware info, help and support with a focus (but not limited to) North American NTSC experiences. Open to all.
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intric8
Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Amiga 1000 Phoenix Board, Part 2: Internal SCSI HDD Inst

by intric8 Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:23 am

@Bulletdust:
I really am getting hopeful that you're right. At work today I scoured the 1.3 manual to look at what you found in context. I then also found this:
L10.png
L10


Can it really be that simple? Oh man - that would be brilliant! Since most of my collection is NTSC, I could actually use this machine a ton more. Then, if I really need true PAL mode, I've got that option. (e.g. to test Speedball 2, etc.)

I think it should be possible to modify a jumper to a switch, too, so I could just flip the switch to go between modes...

Looking for this jumper and adding it tonight will be the first thing I do when I get home tonight!

@McTrinsic:
Do you know if adding RAM through the side car requires special statements added to your startup sequence? I realize you aren't using that port; you have a Derringer with 32MB inside the case... but have you ever hooked anything to the side port for extra RAM? I tried with one of my 2MB cards and it just locked up the machine when it got to the RAM statement in the startup-sequence for some reason.

Also, I am in the process of rebuilding the Phoenix sticker/label for my case. My original sticker is really old, and even ripped. My idea is to create a brand new one. The original was a very deep grayish blue color. Once I have the vector version looking nice, I'm going to have a sheet professionally printed. Would you want one? It probably wouldn't show up well on your black case, but I wanted to offer.

Interestingly, the logo on the case is different than the one in the manual. The one on the case is single-color blue. The phoenix bird on the manual (which was printed in black and white) appears to have been multiple colors.

And then, the bird they used for their disk icons are completely different, too. Anyway... I'm just going to redo the sticker.

I wonder if any of the folks on A1K.org would want a replacement sticker for their machines...?
phoenxi-logos.png
Phoenix logos galore!
User avatar
Shot97
Detroit, MI, USA

Re: Amiga 1000 Phoenix Board, Part 2: Internal SCSI HDD Inst

by Shot97 Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:45 am

They've got a typo. PAL uses 50 frames a second, not 60. Did you ever try out the program Degrader and made sure to have the machine reset to apply PAL/NTSC mode? I think thus far I've come across a grand total of one game that wouldn't run when using this method. A jumpered switch would be the best method.
User avatar
McTrinsic

Re: Amiga 1000 Phoenix Board, Part 2: Internal SCSI HDD Inst

by McTrinsic Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:56 am

intric8 wrote:@Bulletdust:
I really am getting hopeful that you're right. At work today I scoured the 1.3 manual to look at what you found in context. I then also found this:
@McTrinsic:
Do you know if adding RAM through the side car requires special statements added to your startup sequence? I realize you aren't using that port; you have a Derringer with 32MB inside the case... but have you ever hooked anything to the side port for extra RAM? I tried with one of my 2MB cards and it just locked up the machine when it got to the RAM statement in the startup-sequence for some reason.

Also, I am in the process of rebuilding the Phoenix sticker/label for my case. My original sticker is really old, and even ripped. My idea is to create a brand new one. The original was a very deep grayish blue color. Once I have the vector version looking nice, I'm going to have a sheet professionally printed. Would you want one? It probably wouldn't show up well on your black case, but I wanted to offer.

Interestingly, the logo on the case is different than the one in the manual. The one on the case is single-color blue. The phoenix bird on the manual (which was printed in black and white) appears to have been multiple colors.

And then, the bird they used for their disk icons are completely different, too. Anyway... I'm just going to redo the sticker.

I wonder if any of the folks on A1K.org would want a replacement sticker for their machines...?[attachment=0]phoenxi-logos.png

The easy question: sure I'd love one such sticker. Could replace the sticker on the green PCB just behind the front slot. Awesome idea!

Regarding the Mem expansion. Please be aware that there is a jumper to enable/disable all the expansions individually. Check that all are set for being expanded and don't interrupt the autoconfig-chain.
Even then, the Phoenix is a diva, remember ? ;)
It has an abysmal signal quality. Expansions may or may not work. In any case they should appear in the Early Startup Menue of KS3.1.
Or Sysinfo should find them under 'boards'.
I have no experience with non-autoconfig boards, though.
Turned the right axis?
User avatar
intric8
Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Amiga 1000 Phoenix Board, Part 2: Internal SCSI HDD Inst

by intric8 Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:01 am

Shot97:
Did you ever try out the program Degrader and made sure to have the machine reset to apply PAL/NTSC mode?
I've not tried that yet. I need to investigate that option (especially if the L10 jumper changes the board to NTSC!)

McTrinsic:
Turned the right axis?
LOL!
User avatar
Shot97
Detroit, MI, USA

Re: Amiga 1000 Phoenix Board, Part 2: Internal SCSI HDD Inst

by Shot97 Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:11 am

The only thing I can think of that might cause issues for Degrader is if your Phoenix is OCS. I'm pretty sure you said what it was at some point, but I forgot. I think for the full NTSC/PAL switch to work on rebooting it might need to be ECS, at least partially. Still worth experimenting with, especially with this odd hardware.
User avatar
intric8
Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Amiga 1000 Phoenix Board, Part 2: Internal SCSI HDD Inst

by intric8 Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:16 am

The Phoenix is ECS so should be good to go there.
User avatar
intric8
Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Amiga 1000 Phoenix Board, Part 2: Internal SCSI HDD Inst

by intric8 Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:28 pm

I put a jumper on L10 tonight.

I can say this - it definitely created NTSC video output without a doubt! The odd part is, it had all kinds of trouble reading my NTSC disks ... just like when it was a PAL machine. If I load SysInfo, it'll still show its state as being in PAL mode. But the Workbench isn't all vertically crushed anymore during boot-ups. It's "normal" and fills the screen. No more weird blank space at the bottom of the screen...

Part of me wonders if this is less about the MB and more about how my floppy drive is really finicky whenever I put a monitor on top of the Phoenix case. That dumb 3D printed FDD button ... I need to spend some time sanding that ridiculous thing down so there isn't any pressure or contact from the front case pieces. So annoying.

I'm not ready to say this machine is a 'win' on the NTSC front, but setting that jumper definitely changed things. I'm just in a place where I think I need to set the Phoenix down until I figure out the RAM and FDD situations first.

I have 3 Stooges on original disks.

It says something to the effect of "Will not play on PAL machines" on a sticker right on the cover of the box... It loaded up perfectly for me in NTSC mode then froze during a part of the intro animation. Total hang, even with sound "Beeeeeeeeeeeee" until I turned off the machine. Even though I have technically enough RAM, I wonder...

I put the disk in my NTSC Amiga 2000 and it never froze, but the sprites were all freaking out during one part. I need to get some of my obvious PAL disks (OutRun, Shinobi, Speedball, etc.) and try them out on the Phoenix and perform more tests.

It's one thing if PAL disks don't load. It's another if NTSC disks don't load, either! (I did notice that McTrinsic doesn't put a 25 lb. CRT on top of his Phoenix) Whenever I don't put my monitor on it the FDD works flawlessly - so annoying! It's like putting together a Faberge egg.

Anyway, more tests needed. But I'm almost 1/2 way through Immortal. Phoenix is going to need to wait for few days. Thanks for the tip in the jumper, BD. <3
User avatar
Bulletdust

Re: Amiga 1000 Phoenix Board, Part 2: Internal SCSI HDD Inst

by Bulletdust Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:44 am

intric8 wrote:I put a jumper on L10 tonight.

I can say this - it definitely created NTSC video output without a doubt! The odd part is, it had all kinds of trouble reading my NTSC disks ... just like when it was a PAL machine. If I load SysInfo, it'll still show its state as being in PAL mode. But the Workbench isn't all vertically crushed anymore during boot-ups. It's "normal" and fills the screen. No more weird blank space at the bottom of the screen...

Part of me wonders if this is less about the MB and more about how my floppy drive is really finicky whenever I put a monitor on top of the Phoenix case. That dumb 3D printed FDD button ... I need to spend some time sanding that ridiculous thing down so there isn't any pressure or contact from the front case pieces. So annoying.

I'm not ready to say this machine is a 'win' on the NTSC front, but setting that jumper definitely changed things. I'm just in a place where I think I need to set the Phoenix down until I figure out the RAM and FDD situations first.

I have 3 Stooges on original disks.

It says something to the effect of "Will not play on PAL machines" on a sticker right on the cover of the box... It loaded up perfectly for me in NTSC mode then froze during a part of the intro animation. Total hang, even with sound "Beeeeeeeeeeeee" until I turned off the machine. Even though I have technically enough RAM, I wonder...

I put the disk in my NTSC Amiga 2000 and it never froze, but the sprites were all freaking out during one part. I need to get some of my obvious PAL disks (OutRun, Shinobi, Speedball, etc.) and try them out on the Phoenix and perform more tests.

It's one thing if PAL disks don't load. It's another if NTSC disks don't load, either! (I did notice that McTrinsic doesn't put a 25 lb. CRT on top of his Phoenix) Whenever I don't put my monitor on it the FDD works flawlessly - so annoying! It's like putting together a Faberge egg.

Anyway, more tests needed. But I'm almost 1/2 way through Immortal. Phoenix is going to need to wait for few days. Thanks for the tip in the jumper, BD. <3


Perhaps you have a PAL only Agnus?

No problem my friend. :)
User avatar
intric8
Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Amiga 1000 Phoenix Board, Part 2: Internal SCSI HDD Inst

by intric8 Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:06 am

Perhaps you have a PAL only Agnus?
Maybe. Not sure. That would be a relatively easy thing to test out later. It's possible I have a spare in an A2000 parts machine.
User avatar
Shot97
Detroit, MI, USA

Re: Amiga 1000 Phoenix Board, Part 2: Internal SCSI HDD Inst

by Shot97 Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:55 am

I can help you with the Stooges, actually. I went through some hair tearing moments trying to get it to work on my machine... Mine is not NTSC anymore, I wanted ECS and PAL compatibility so I bought just a PAL motherboard for the 500. Very very cheap to do by the way, in case anyone is wanting to upgrade chips or something... You could always buy an NTSC machine in America and then ship a motherboard from overseas... I wouldn't do that today, because now I have other methods, but since many people seem to have headaches with power supplies and stuff, it's all plug and play with the motherboard, works fine on any system once you plug it up.

Anyway... My machine is PAL, although it's mostly being used in NTSC mode, I'd say 95% of my use is there. I switch the modes using that program called Degrader... There are three options that are essential for this to work in the best way possible. There are two spots in the menu where 50hz and 60hz are listed. One of them controls just the resolution, so you could have the graphics looking right. I'll use that mode because it does not require a reboot when I'm going onto BBS'. I never play games that way though, because for some reason they tend to show up just outside of the screen and stuff... It's weird... The game Knights of the Sky comes with a program for PAL users to stretch the screen into NTSC mode, but they call it 60hz mode. I don't think it actually changes the speed, just the resolution. Using that program also causes the screen to go off centered...

So for games I check both the 60hz resolution mode as well as the 60hz speed mode, and then I tell it to reboot. I think rebooting is essential to not running into issues. But I have on occasion run into issues. Using this method will make the games look right and play at their correct speed, but as you mentioned, if I were to launch SysInfo from my 500 it would also still record it as being a PAL machine.

The Three Stooges is one of the rare NTSC games that refuse to run in PAL mode. I first got the original non cracked adf which was NTSC, and just like you experience it wouldn't go past the introduction. If you have the original American release that is... That was not so much my headache; the headache was that many of the cracks you can find online refuse to allow you to control the pie throwing scene. I must have went to three different sites and tried out 10 versions in order to get the one that would work. Now; Once you have the so called "PAL" version of the Stooges, it's not really PAL at all... Again, you can switch it into NTSC mode and it will show up correctly at the right speed. It can also be installed onto the hard drive as well, highly recommended by the way.

If you want the Stooges to run on your Phoenix machine, I could grab the images for you. They are cracked though. Just a small intro screen that can be quickly clicked out of. If you install it on the hard drive you'll have to run the program called "Unit" first, that's the crack intro, and then the program "3S" to launch the game, and it has to be done in the shell. Directory Opus icons won't work on this one, I've tried it, crashes the system.

It's very rare I've come across a game that had issues like that with PAL machines and switching the modes, but Stooges is one of them. Pretty easy fix though, let me know if you want those adfs.

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